[MommyDee]

Some of you may have noticed that I haven't been on much lately... I've got my hands very very full and I need advice. Gabriel's behavior is becoming intolerable.

To start, he STILL hasn't finished toilet training. DH and I are just about ready to throw in the towel. As many of you know, he has had issues with chronic constipation; however, that is mostly resolved, he will be five in November, and he is due to start kindergarten in September. We've tried everything ever suggested... easy-ups, underwear, no bottoms on at all, using a small training potty, using the big toilet, sticker charts, rewards, being lenient, being strict, sitting him down at regular intervals, and on and on and on. When we get him into his underwear (which always means a screaming, crying fight), he does okay with peeing, but absolutely downright refuses to go #2 in the toilet. If he's wearing an easy-up, he doesn't even consider taking it down to use the toilet, but uses it as a diaper. I'm out of energy, patience, and running out of time.

He also just doesn't listen... in fact, he's becoming downright belligerent. No matter what you ask/tell him to do, the answer is either "No", "I can't", or "I don't want to". It used to be a matter of asking/speaking to him twice; now he'll defy you five, six, seven times in a row, and most of the time it degrades into a yelling match. He even says no at first if it's something he wants to do! Then he turns around and says, "Oh, I mean yeah, okay". He can throw a tantrum anytime, anywhere, with seemingly no provocation. Even if you're saying "yes" and giving him something he's asked for, half the time he will do an about-face, decide he doesn't want what he just finished begging you for, and start screaming anyways.

It's also impossible to get him into any kind of a schedule... He fights bedtime tooth and nail. We have a bedtime routine, and DH stays with him til he falls asleep -- but how long that will take on any given night is anybody's guess. Heaven forbid the child passes out for a nap in the afternoon; that means we're up til at least midnight trying to get him to sleep. And if he does fall asleep during the day, there's either no waking him or there's no tolerating him. There's also no feeding him on a schedule... either he eats when he wants to or WATCH OUT. Being hungry is one of his worst triggers for a tantrum.

We have him enrolled in daycare three days a week, four hours per session. Unfortunately, his behavior seems to be continuing there... so far, I've been told he's "cranky", "doesn't like to listen", and one day was "spitting at his friends" (aka razzing at them). He tells me himself how he "didn't want to do that" when the teacher started an activity... at least two instances for every session. He won't sit still for story time either. And I know it's not the daycare; the place comes highly recommended, they are excellent with the kids, and I've seen them deal with other "persistent" kids.

Most days, he just doesn't stop -- I've compared him to the Energizer bunny, a ping-pong ball, a spin top, etc etc etc. But some days all he does is cry at the drop of a hat, and complain that he's "too tired" to do anything. His mood swings are unbelievable. I've sincerely wondered if he might have inherited some kind of mood disorder from me... from all my mom has told me, he's almost exactly like I was as a child -- only worse. And my mom always described me as the crankiest 4yr-old she'd ever seen.

Having said that, as you might be able to tell, we've been trying everything we can think of to straighten things out. We've never been excessively strict parents, but we've never just let him do what he wanted either -- we set limits, try to be consistent, try to set a schedule, discipline him. Nothing seems to work.

I guess I'm posting this because I really need to hear that someone else has had experience with a child like this, and whether I should finally take that step and have him evaluated by the pediatrician. I've been debating it for months now, and keep putting it off because I've been hoping he's just on the more extreme side of normal... I'm just not sure anymore. Does anyone have any advice, or experience in a situation like this? I am so, so tired of fighting with my son. I love him so much, but lately I hate being around him -- he's just so difficult, he drains me. I've read books on "high-need" and "spirited" children, and he fits the bill, but there's still something more that doesn't seem right to me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[DivasMomma]

I hate using ADHD as any kind of example because I feel it is over diagnosed, but he really does display the signs of it.

Have you talked to your pediatrician about any of this? He may need to see some kind of behavorial therapist....i know hes a 5 yr old boy, and boys act up. But the way you are describing him, he seems to need more then just disipline from mommy and daddy.

Did things get worse once Damian was born? My sister had ODD (obsessive defiant disorder) adnd everything was NO to her as well, even the things she wanted.

Keep us posted, and remember....breathe... Things will get better (((HUGS))))

[MommyDee]

Thanks Rhianna... ADHD and ODD are both things I've looked up as possibilities. DH has been a little more reluctant to consider medical causes... and then you have my mom, who freaks out at me every time I mention ADHD and tells me "You'd better not think you're going to put that child on medication, you'll turn him into a zombie! All he needs is to be put on a proper schedule." That hurts, but then again, so do most of the comments I get from her on my parenting style and abilities. All I really want to do is get his behaviour into a more acceptable range so that he functions better in everyday life, because the way things are right now, I'm really really worried about him starting school in the fall.

[deedee1231]

{{Hugs}}

Please take him to get a pediatrician's evaluation. He may very well have ADHD. My little brother had it and what you have described sounds very much like he acted as a child.

My younger brother was also still struggling with toilet training issues, very much like what you have described, the summer before he was to begin Kindergarten. My mother was at her wits end, she knew she could not send a child to school who was still pooping in his pants...so she didn't. She just kept him home another year until he was developmentally ready to start K. She took him to the doctor, got a diagnosis of ADHD, and started him on Ritalin which actually did help quite a bit and absolutely did not even come close to turning him into a zombie. He was still very active and high spirited, but much better able to pay attention when he needed to and focus. He was also much less defiant. Then my Mom spent that extra year working to get him ready to start Kindergarten the following year.

I know you are probably anxious for him to go to school, but might you consider keeping him home a little longer so he will be better prepared for K when he gets there? In the meantime, you could have an eval done and hopefully you and his doctor can devise a plan to counter/cope with his behavior. I think there are other options available now other than Ritalin, if you are opposed to it as I know many people are. In the early 80's that was about all parents had for ADHD. Just a suggestion to think about.

In regards to your mom, you might just have to tell her to back off a bit and let you handle your son the way you feel you need to. I know it is hard. Just explain to her that you would feel better with a doctors opinion about his problems and let her know that you really need her support right now. I am sure she really does want to help.
Prayers for you and Gabriel.

[mrmnmom82]

YOu might try changing his diet before you give him the medication. Taking out additives, color (red#5), these things can add to hyper activity. I don't know if you need to go as far as organic or anything, but I would try to stay away from packaged foods. Breakfast cereal with less than 9g. of sugar, add bananas and strawberrys instead. You might be suprised at the improvment, but it's not a gurantee, but worth a try I think.

[kalhayd2]

I am a behavioral specialist and while he does demonstrate some of the obvious charcteristics of ADHD, he also demonstrates being a boy whose testing his limits.
Have you tried reward/consequence charts? What we'd encourage clients to do is reward a good behavior(ie, going to bed on time independently) by giving a sticker/coin or whatever. The child never got to actually use the coin/sticker instantly that way they'd be encouraged to earn more to eventually build up to a prize.. For every bad behavior- they'd lose a coin/sticker. You'd set how many stickers= what prize(a favorite for Gabriel).
Do you think the new baby could have anything to do with the defiance with potty-training? He see's his little brother being changed/cared for and he wants the same? Kids tend to act out for attention- regardless of what type of attention they'll get.

I hate, hate, hate diagnosing kids this young with medical issues. Why? Because the vast majority tend to outgrow the issues without much intervention at all. I was a VERY needy child, too.

((Hugs)) It must be rough- I can only imagine.

[twinzplus3]

I agree. . .I don't think kids shold be diagnosed with ADHD this young. I wouldn't consider it as an option to be honest--not at this point. I would consider getting him evaluated by a pedi though for things that are accurately discernable at this age. For example, blood sugar disorders can be tested for and cause erratic behavior like that (I have a child like that).

My other advice that I'll offer is to work on one thing at a time. Tackle an issue, be it potty training or bed time--whatever is the worst for you--and find a way to deal with that first. It's easy when we're frustrated to see all the issues related. ..and they are. . .but dealing with changinge the behavior (unless of course there's an underlying medical issue) one thing at a time will be easier on both of you.

[LeanyBean]

Sounds to me like I just might have one of those kids on my hands soon. I'd sure like to have some options if Charlie gets that bad. He's over halfway there~refusing to poo in the potty, refusing the little potty, being defiant just because he can, sleepiness and hunger are also his triggers~ but I still have 2 years before he starts kindergarten. He also is just perfectly well behaved at sitters and such. He's just that stubborn around me.

If you go the route of getting an evaluation done on Gabriel, I suggest a social worker rather than a peditrician. In my experience they usually can help find solutions in all forms without ever considering medications. When my oldest was 3 he wasn't really talking, didn't interact at all with his peers and was particular about everything. I had a social worker do a full work up on him and she suggested he get tested for autism because he showed so many signs of it. So we did. In fact they did it twice because they couldn't believe he wasn't autistic. But what they did find as a group was that he had a developmental delay focused on his speech. A few rounds of special ed classes and lots of speech therapy and today he's a normal 8 1/2 yr old boy. In most states, if you qualify for any state aid whatsoever they will cover government funded programs for your child and I know definitely in Minnesota that even covers transportation. They will send someone to your home to pick up your child for class and bring them back.

I'm not saying peds are bad but that there are other professionals out there that are ready willing and able to help. And I was lucky to have found some really good ones.

[MommyDee]

deedee -- I've wondered about keeping him back if he doesn't get past this in time... DH is adamant that he go on time. We won't have a choice if he isn't trained by September.

mrmnmom82 -- DH and I discussed it this evening, and we're going to be cutting out what junky food he does eat... He tends to be a very picky eater (left over from food aversions during the constipation days) but luckily we've managed to get him hooked on fruit juice, natural fruit snacks, whole wheat bread, cheese, peanut butter, yogurt, All-Bran bars (aka cookie bars lol), etc etc. The only thing we absolutely can't take out is his Krispie squares lol.

Lisa -- We tried a sticker chart for toilet training where he'd get a small sticker for #1, a big sticker for #2. Unfortunately, he would pee in little tiny amounts to get a bunch of small stickers, then give up and start wetting. The defiance, in all areas, has been an ongoing issue for almost two years... The older he gets, the worse it gets, and it doesn't seem to be related to Damian's arrival. In terms of acting out for attention, this is definitely one source of it -- the problem is, Gabriel wants ALL your attention ALL the time, and has been that way for a long time as well. He is also an extremely persistent kid... You can say "NO" until you turn blue in the face, and he'll still be coming back with the same request/demand every 1-2mins.

Arlene -- I've debated on going to Public Health for advice... They work hand in hand with social workers when necessary, so that might be a route to consider. And fingers crossed for you with Charlie... I wouldn't wish this fight on any mother.

Anyhow, I am going to call tomorrow for an appt with the pediatrician, and take it from there... I know from experience that she won't jump into any diagnosis or medication without thoroughly exhausting all possibilities. I just hope we can figure out how to help him.

[KR258]

Good Luck