[twinzplus3]

Thank you for sharing all of your information. It is clear that you are highly opposed to circumcision.

[QueenAngie]

Pointing back to the main topic of male circ.
(Please, one topic at a time. This does not address female circ in this thread.)


**********************

Originally Posted by mothernurture

It really seems like the tides are turning with regard to the way circumcising children is being viewed from an ethical standpoint.

Jen

Jen, I see your point as being anti-circ.

However, ethics are a personal matter, according to the individual.

My personal ethics and experiences are much different then yours.

My personal experiences deal directly with
real live adult men,
grade school aged boys,
and one two year old boy,
who have to undergo circ with general anesthesia,
because it was not done as a newborn and they were having a major health problem because of that skin.

These are not just 1 - 2, we are talking many males here directly related to my own personal and health experiences.

When it is a health issue and affects the lives of adult men that I know, this places things in a much different light.....
The real world.

Next....

[mcmama]

I'd like to remind everyone of the Guidelines for Debates.

From time to time, people find an interesting discussion on this site through googling topics about which they have a passion. This is a reminder to not copy paste information, but please link to the sites that contain the information. Our forums are not for dissertations or articles, they are for discussion.

[mothernurture]

Originally Posted by twinzplus3

Thank you for sharing all of your information. It is clear that you are highly opposed to circumcision.

I wasn't always opposed. I didn't really think much of it one way or another until I worked in a hospital birth center as a nursing assistant where one of my duties was assisting with newborn circumcision. My experience was the catalyst for my research and why I left my son intact... despite his father and older brother being circumcised. I really had no idea how controversial it was or that there's actually a movement against the practice.

One of the biggest organizations is NoCirc, but there's also the International Coalition for Genital Integrity, Students for Genital Integrity, Association for Genital Integrity, Doctors Opposing Circumcision, Nurses for the Rights of the Child, Attorney's for the Rights of the Child, Mothers Against Circumcision, National Organization to Halt the Abuse and Routine Mutilation of Males, Stop Infant Circumcision Society, Musicians United to Stop Infant Circumcision, etc. (more, HERE)

A quick search for "circumcision" on youtube.com turns up over 500 videos, but one of the most fascinating from an ethical standpoint is a Dutch documentary by videographer Michael Schaap. It's very professionally done, is about 35 minutes long, and available FREE online.

Quote from the original Press release:

This is the first time that a (critical) film about the circumcision of boys has been made in the Netherlands, and this broadcast led to a strong public debate. In this broadcast, a number of questions are put to the MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which she subsequently put to the Minister of Health. (Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the controversial Dutch MP who made the film Submission with filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was subsequently murdered by a muslim fanatic). On Friday, 17 December 2004, the Minister decided to exclude the circumcision of boys from the Dutch National Health insurance scheme. 90% of the circumcisions were carried out for religious, rather than health reasons.

http://www.macdocman.com/?p=39
NOTE: The video itself contains some graphic footage but the page I'm linking to here does not.

It's an issue that effects so many children, it's good to see it being discussed on pregnancy, family, and parenting boards across the net. I think a lot of parents believe that they are making an informed choice but know few details about the procedure or more importantly the functions of the foreskin. For instance: Did you know that the most common circumcision method (gomco) actually safety pins the foreskin onto the clamp?

My hope by sharing here is simply that parents are aware that circumcising boys is no longer an automatic/routine/universally accepted thing and there are some excellent resources online that are causing a lot of people all over the world to question and rethink the practice.

---

Originally Posted by QueenAngie

However, ethics are a personal matter, according to the individual.

My personal ethics and experiences are much different then yours.

I'm more referring to human rights and medical ethics as opposed to cultural conditioning and personal morality/preference.

My personal experiences deal directly with
real live adult men,
grade school aged boys,
and one two year old boy,
who have to undergo circ with general anesthesia,
because it was not done as a newborn and they were having a major health problem because of that skin.

These are not just 1 - 2, we are talking many males here directly related to my own personal and health experiences.

When it is a health issue and affects the lives of adult men that I know, this places things in a much different light.....
The real world.

Let me ask you this:

If a girl has a problem with her vulva like labial adhesions for instance, is it because her healthy, normal, standard-issue labia weren't excised as a newborn? Does the possibility that amputative surgery might be required later in life justify removing healthy body parts prophylactically from non-consenting children? Before you answer, consider how many adult diabetics have toes, feet, or legs amputated in their later years.

Most of the problems that intact children experience are largely due to improper care. I see it on messageboards all the time: He needed a circumcision when he was 2 or 3 or 4 because of repeated infections or because his foreskin was scarred/wouldn't retract. His mom did everything right and kept it clean and he still had problems.

When babies are born, the foreskin is actually attached-literally fused-to the head (glans) of the penls and the tip of the foreskin (the preputial sphincter) is tight, snug like a purse-string. Nature designed it this way so that urine can flow out and yuckies can't get in.

Unfortunately, well-meaning but misinformed care providers (and frequently medical professionals) believe that the foreskin needs to be retracted and the tip of the penls cleaned during baths and diaper changes. When this is done, it tears the natural, protective adhesions and causes microtears in the foreskin's opening. Another thing that happens is the natural balance/flora under the foreskin is disrupted; this is akin to douching out a little girl's vagina. So, you have two problems being caused by this excessive cleaning: a.) foreskin trauma, creating an entry point for bacteria and b.) washing away the good microorganisms increasing the potential for overgrowth of 'bad' things like candida (yeast). When this happens repeatedly, daily, over years it can lead to pain, infections, and scarring. It's not the foreskin's fault any more than overzealous cleaning of the sensitive inside of a girl's genitals would be the fault of her vagina. Until a boy can retract his own foreskin comfortably, the head of the penls is as much an internal organ as a woman's cervix.

I even remember reading on one board a mother had been told to retract her baby boy's foreskin and clean beneath it with alcohol soaked Q-tips. Can you imagine? We really need to get over this paranoia about foreskins being any more "dirty" than female folds.

Most of the time, problems are preventable, and according to the Canadian Paediatric Society (CPS) only 1% of boys will ever require circumcision for medical reasons. Even something like phimosis is curable in over 80% of cases with a few weeks of a topical steroid cream. The foreskin is really the only body part the American medical community is quick to amputate.

Jen

[mothernurture]

Originally Posted by mcmama

I'd like to remind everyone of the Guidelines for Debates.

From time to time, people find an interesting discussion on this site through googling topics about which they have a passion. This is a reminder to not copy paste information, but please link to the sites that contain the information. Our forums are not for dissertations or articles, they are for discussion.

Thanks for the reminder. I hope my short snippets/summaries have been okay. I'll be careful to post links as opposed to post longer excerpts.

Jen

[mothernurture]

New article:

Divorce, Religion, and Circumcision:
What A Conflict Tells Us About Parental Rights
By SHERRY F. COLB
----
Wednesday, Nov. 28, 2007
(mod cut - copy paste)
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20071128.html

I found this interesting.

Jen

[mothernurture]

I'm absolutely amazed and the public attention this issue is getting.

Improved understanding of the normal anatomy of the infant foreskin means there is now rarely a therapeutic indication for infant circumcision,1 and the procedure is not supported by international medical opinion.2 Ritual (non-therapeutic) male circumcision, however, continues unchecked throughout the world, long after female circumcision, facial scarification, and other ritual forms of infant abuse have been made illegal. The law and principles pertaining to child protection should apply equally to both sexes, so why do society and the medical profession collude with this unnecessary mutilating practice?

British Medical Journal (BMJ)
8 December 2007
Volume 335
Is infant male circumcision an abuse of the rights of the child? YES
Geoff Hinchley accident and emergency consultant, Barnet and Chase Farm NHS Trust, Enfield, Middlesex EN2 8JL
http://press.psprings.co.uk/bmj/december/feat1180.pdf

Jen

[mothernurture]

Circumcision does not affect HIV in U.S. men
Removing foreskin no protection for American men of color, study finds

updated 6:58 a.m. PT, Tues., Dec. 4, 2007

WASHINGTON - Circumcision may reduce a man's risk of infection with the AIDS virus by up to 60 percent if he is an African, but it does not appear to help American men of color, U.S. researchers reported on Monday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

[mcmama]

Jen, I think no one is responding because your one sided intense argumentativeness has killed the thread. Please refrain from further posting of articles. Also please refrain from commentary until the discussion has a chance to recover. I have asked you before to avoid extensive copy paste.

This happened on the abortion thread, and on the gay rights thread - zealots come in and totally shut down the discussion. We keep this board free for discussion from folks who are not academics or pros.

Some communities thrive on chapter verse argumentative behavior, and wars of the words and the journals and the experts and proof and construct of argument. This is not one of them.

You might be happier fighting your battle on a more contentious board. It is very clear that you are here to fight. It is also clear that while there is an interest in the topic, no one is going to bother with you.

[MerriLade]

My oldest son is...he's 22 and I didn't know any better. My Husband is, but well most american 40 year old men are, my 4 year old is not. After talking to my gyn and ped while pregnant, we decided not to. Here are the questions that arose while we were contemplating our decision. Cleanliness - Not really an issue in this country and in our situation - "perhaps if you lived in Borneo" (said my gyn) The risk of infection - also not an issue, the studies that you see are not based on the uncircumcised population, but on a relatively small poplulation. Most of the men on this planet are not circumcised! He'll look different than the other males in our family...yes he will, and if he wants to know why, we'll tell him we didn't know any better, and when we knew better we did better - besides if his nose or ears looked different than my husbands, I wouldn't start having them hack away at those body parts. He'll look different than the other boys in the locker room. 1st of all more parents are making this choice today so he'll probably not be the only one, and 2nd Do guys really stand around comparing private parts in the locker room?
Basically circumcision is cosmetic surgery. Less and less peds are doing them these days for just that reason...they are completely unecessary.