[lizziegirl05]

ok, so a topic came up in another thread that got me to thinking about this. how do you feel about giving children the freedom of expression vs. conformity? like, do you think gender roles should be imposed to them or would you let your boy were a skirt if he wanted? or say your whole family is into music and your child would rather doodle all day? do you think kids should just be let alone to discover their own selves, or would you try to form them into what you think is best for them? also, what would be your reasons for whatever you do. like, is it because of society, your faith, family, etc....

personally, we are all about freedom of expression. we will set no different standards for our kids, regardless of gender. and while we hope they take a liking to the arts, all we really want is for them to be happy. we believe that we should guide them the best we can on whatever path they choose, but we shouldnt choose their path for them.

[kalhayd2]

I think children need boundries and if we're allowing too much "expression" they'll likely overstep those boundries. In your theory what is stoppnig the child from going to the extreme?
With that said I would allow my child to discover their selves within reason. Sure, you want to draw instead of play the tuba go for it. You want to be a swimmer instead of a ballerina- sure.

But, I would NOT allow my son to wear a skirt- Or would I provide the clothing, etc, for my daughter or son to dress goth. I won't allow tattoos on a minor- or weird body piercings.
Kids make random wild decisions that they can be stuck with forever. As a parent it is our responsibility to attempt to restirct such wild decisions until the child is older(IE, out of the house).

[altland]

Here's my crazy thoughts:

Children need room to discover themselves. My goal as a parent is to expose them to as many different concepts, adventures, and ideas as possible. How do they know if they want to be a NASA engineer if they have never seen a rocket ship? How can they decide to be a zoo keeper if they have never been to the zoo? So I am all for them trying whatever they want. If they want to play soccer one time, and baseball the next, go for it. Who knows until you try? I do expect them to finish what they start.

With that said, we all have to conform to some sort of societal conformity. This is different for each family's immediate world. Religion, geography, and social status all play a role in that. I do not want my child to have to struggle as an adult because I did not teach them properly. I take my kids clothing shopping with me. I let them decide what they want to wear, within reason. So far, we have the same tastes. Occasionally we differ, but I figure in the scheme of things, who cares if she wears black sneakers instead of white ones. I would never let my boy wear a skirt. It is my job to teach him what is correct and what isnt. Even though some might say its an expression, I do not want to set him up for the redicule that would come from that choice. I have to teach them right from wrong, and our society right now, says boys wearing skirts is wrong. What they do when they leave home, will be up to them. They will have to live with those consequences. Hopefully, if I do my job properly, they will have the skills, social graces, and attitude to deal with whatever life throws at them.

[twinzplus3]

Thanks Lizziegirl.

All about freedom of expression within our value system. Actually you are too. Your value system doesn't hold that there should be gender specific roles. . .that any choice in sexuality is fine, etc. But mine does.

However, you mentioned somewhere that your partner has requested that hair isn't cut until age 4. (I think that's for girls but maybe not.) We however, let our girls choose hair cuts as soon as they'd like. For two of my dd's that's been at about age 2.5 and 3. So in that specific instance. . .couldn't you say our family is more about expressing themselves than yours?

Actually I have to go. I'll expand on this idea more. Good discussion topic. But there isn't a family devoid of values. . .even stating that you have no values (you haven't said that--I'm just giving an example) is still a value unto itself. And whether we like it or not, we all as parents, encourage children within our own values. I'm just honest about it. Okay. . .must go. Be back later. Thanks again lizzie.

[Samual]

The only skirts the boys are allowed to wear are kilts, unless they were dressing up and running around, if one of them seriously wanted to wear a skirt, a kilt is the only option with an explanation that it is a skirt only boys can wear, not girls. Of course they don't follow the Scottish tradition of undergarments, or lack there of. Not only that but they are too young to understand wearing a womans skirt of clothes, will probably lead to many nasty comments and probably confuse them alot.
So because of society, but also because they are so young, a 4 year old can become confused by being allowed to wear girls clothes, a 14 year old wont.
Until they are buying there own clothes they can have what they want as long as we agree to it, so selective choice which includes colour too, the same for Pippa she wont be allowed to wear boys clothes, but it doesn't mean she will have to dress like a girly girl either. Also because there are two dads, I think we will have to enforce gender more even though they are always around other girls and female relatives.
Like at the moment if one of the boys wanted a girls toy, or if when older Pip wanted a boys toy we would just say that, it's a boys toy, not a girls so you can't have it. Like if she wanted a car, she can have one, but it has to be a girls car.

Things like their hair, they can have however they want as long as they don't dye it and it conforms to school rules, because well then it makes the school the evil one not us.

Tattoo's and piercings, if you are old enough legally and you are paying for it, you can have it, old enough to get it done old enough not to moan when you hate. Than again Frank has been constantly having tattoo's since he was 16 and so far doesn't hate any.

I don't think it's restricting freedom as such, more shifting to another idea, letting a child have it's own way all the time is never a good thing and will probably turn into a little brat. Children do need rules and they need to be upheld.

[pattiewrites]

We allow freedom of expression as much as possible. Our kids go to Catholic school, so it's uniforms for school. However, outside of school, they can choose what they would like to wear. Obviously, since I've purchased all their clothing, there isn't anything we consider too inappropriate/revealing. Not sure about the skirt thing. So far that has never been an issue for us. I don't know what I'd do if it became an issue with one of the kids. I'm fairly sure I'd be trying to tread carefully between conforming to society's expectations and not totally destroying my child emotionally and ending up with an adult child that is not in my life at all, if he were a transgendered person or whatever. I'd probably seek some counseling if that were the case.

As far as extra curricular activities, we expose our kids to a lot of different things, but let them choose what they love. I'd never force them to do something like dance or music because we like it, even if they don't. That just makes for one miserable little child! For example, I coach cheerleading and both my older girls have been on my squad for the past two years. My younger one has told me that she intends to play basketball next year and not cheer. No problem at all for me, but I've seen moms push them into what mom likes with little regard for what their kids want or need. I think they need to try a variety of activities/sports/arts/whatever and then make up their own minds.

[mcmama]

When my oldest was a baby, my ex MIL asked "how will you mold him"? Further discussion of that revealed that she thought it possible to "mold" the child to be the person the parent wants him to be. She was not happy with my response that I wasn't going to "mold" him, but encourage him to be the best and happiest person he could be. My retort was that if I "molded" a child, the end result would be moldy children and moldy adults. WELL!!!!!

So I have two boys, one is very recognizably creative and bright, and the other is a jock who thinks outside the box. One is going into academia, and the other into the military. Neither are career tracks I would have picked for them - but they are who they are, and they make their choices.

We've dealt with the issue of clothing in that the youngest until this year never wanted to dress up for anything. Now that he is 17, shopping for clothing is still an ordeal - not because he is kicking and screaming, but because he has to try this and this and this and the shirt has to be a particular color, and the combination of the tie shirt and jacket has to have a certain look and then there is mousse and gel and tieing his hair in a rag to force it to go back the way he wants it. Who is this new person anyway? Sheesh.

As to the gender bender question, if I had a boy who seriously needed to dress in girl clothes, I would discourage it when young, and if it continued, I would seek the support of parent groups for kids who have these issues. Whether or not someone is actually transvestite or transgender, they need to know growing up how to behave in mixed social groups, and what is appropriate expression and what is not. You don't do a child who struggles with gender identity issues any favors by forcing one identity, but you also do not do them any favors by saying do whatever you want without preparing them for consequences or teaching them appropriate behavior and responses. This is true for other methods of self expression as well.

All the dress up designs in the world would not have changed who my boys are - and it was very clear they were exhibiting male traits from day one in their approaches to exploring the world. Also, I noted that their social behavior in my family child care home was to very quickly form a "boys club" - it was very important for the kids to recognizably identify one another by gender and preferences for certain things. They often tried to exclude the girls from sport games - and consistently the girls would beat them at the contest. But it was clear that when they played with one another they wanted to play rough - and the girls let it be known that this was not acceptable play. The girls were much more into pretend play, which didn't hold the boys interest quite so much. So we would have "construction" companies for the boys to dig dirt, and "days of beauty" for the girls to try on jewelry and paint their nails.

Funny pretend game - I had an appliance delivered, and we had the big box left over. They all decided to build a "house". They painted the box, cut out windows and doors, and then set up a "tea party" in the "house". Everyone was together on that. One of the girls did the usual assigning of roles. "Im the mommy, you be the daddy, you be the big brother, you be the baby etc". Well that did not suit one of the boys. So she said "ok, you can be the neighbor." He didn't like that. So they got everything all set up, and he busted in through the window. She said "neighbors don't come in through the window". He said "I'm not the neighbor. I'm the burglar."

After everyone stopped laughing, the whole game changed, and they "repaired" the window. (I "arrested" the burglar, who then helped fix the box up again.)

[kalhayd2]

Originally Posted by Samual

Like at the moment if one of the boys wanted a girls toy, or if when older Pip wanted a boys toy we would just say that, it's a boys toy, not a girls so you can't have it. Like if she wanted a car, she can have one, but it has to be a girls car. .

We have NO issues with our daughter playing with boy toys. In fact, one of her favorite toys is this HUGE yellow dump truck that belonged to my nephew. Of course, she's still an infant so I don't think she understands the difference yet. However, with that being said, I don't think a boy who plays with dolls our a girl who plays with trucks, is gender confusing.

[altland]

I don't think young children can be gender confused. Maybe I am just naive that way. They are just experimenting. I think they are attracted to colors, shapes, lights, sounds, ect. I have a boy and a girl and they play togeher all the time. Sometimes, they play with her toys. Other times they play with his. Sometimes, its house or zoo. Other times they race cars on the living room floor.

Here's what I find completely amazing: When I found out I was pregnant with a boy, I often wondered if he would only want girls toys since thats what his sister plays with. Of course I bought lots of boy toys, but the "community" toybox had both of their toys in it. He always levitated to the cars, trucks, dinosaurs, and balls. How did he know to do that? I never said, "Dolls are bad. Cars or good." Now he has found superheroes, and chooses them over Care Bears or Princesses. So is it all imbred? Does his little boy genes tell him he likes cars instead of dolls? If it is, does that make the idea that another little boy chooses dolls, a genes thing too?

I love watching them grow and develop into small little people. Its very amazing. I often look at them and wonder what they will be when they grow up. There is so much potential in their little minds.

[mcmama]

Yes, the boy and girls toys seem to be self selective. They can often play with the same toy, but in different ways.

The girls in my daycare group used to play with the toy trucks too. But instead of playing construction worker or demo derby, they rode on them if large enough, or used them to transport other toys as part of make believe.

At Christmas, i have a lot of nativity sets. There are some to look at and some to play with. I found one day the the "flight to Egypt" was taking place in a dump truck with dinosaurs chasing it. There were Mary and Joseph and the baby in the load carrier (don't know the name of these things) with angels flying overhead and one of the fisher price guys driving, with the T rex in hot pursuit. Zoom Zoom.

One of those teachable moments.

Both boys and girls liked to play with horses, but the girls like the ones with the long combable tails.

I don't really go in for boy and girl designs in toys - if they want it great, if not, so what. They play with it in their own way anyhow.