[mcmama]

What do we think of this?

Many of us find that television preachers are a good supplement to our worship life. I myself have found that Joel Osteen's and TD Jakes books are very helpful to me, and I watch their programs. I've tuned into Paula White too, but she seems a bit flashy and a lot of what she says just doesn't sink into me like Osteen and Jakes.

Osteen and Jakes are not the preachers being investigated as far as I know, but White is. The others under investigation are Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, and Bishop Eddie Long.


I like that Osteen does not solicit money on tv, he just sells his books at the end of the show. I bought his books from his church online bookstore deliberately, and now I am on the mailing list for donations - and I think that is appropriate. (haven't donated anything to Joel, just put the money in the plate on Sunday at my new church. But I gave his books as Christmas presents!)

What's going on with the money here, and why do televangelists like Creflo Dollar and others seem to attract both wealth, controversy, and scrutiny?

What works and what doesn't in a television ministry? How do we know what is sincere and what is not?

[QueenAngie]

I will occasionally watch Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer on TV for a few minutes, but not an entire show. They do have very uplifting messages.

Certainly there are many individuals that would like to go to church, but are not able to attend due to poor health, being elderly, or maybe working. So, listening on the radio or watching TV is another option to bring the Word of God to those individuals.

I do not like the constant asking for funds either.

Remember Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker? Similar story, different TV channel.

What do you think?

[mcmama]

It's a similiar story, but it has been around longer than Jim Bakker.

I remember Rev Ike appealing to poor people for donations for his flashy lifestyle - sort of like, hey look what you can be a part of. I never bought into that and don't understand people who do.

In the article I linked to, it mentions someone who took out payday loans to keep up the donations. Apparently there are people who believe "the laws of attraction" apply if they donate to those who preach a gospel of wealth.

Osteen says to bring the best OUT of people - that is to be kind to people and you will attract kindness in your own life. He also talks about changing habits and turning off negative voices from your past. I think this is a more sensible tie in to the current interest in laws of attraction. And he doesn't ask for your money unless you want to buy his books, for prices ranging from 14.95 to 25.00. He has several best sellers - so I guess he HONESTLY does not need your donations unless you choose to become part of his church.

I cannot imagine how anyone thinks they are going to attract prosperity by taking out a payday loan. That's one of the worst loans you can have.

[twinzplus3]

Okay girls. . .I'm pretty sure I'm going to get in trouble for this one. . .

I won't watch televeangelists. Part of that is lack of time but honestly, I distrust them and I feel like their message--IF accurate, is like receiving baby food when I could be receiving meat from real fellowship with mature believers. Frankly, even Joel Osteen, I consider to have a very shallow message with a watery gospel.

As far as the health and properity gospel. . .I think it's unbiblical and has no place in evangelical Christianity. I can give references if needed. . .but since this thread is here in the Christian forum, I'm going to just assume for now that we've all read the Bible and you know to what I'm referring.

First of all, doesn't Paul talk about a thorn in his flesh that God did not remove for the purpose of refining him? Scripture is full of references and examples of Godly leaders who suffered. The properity gospel teaches that suffering is a result of a lack of faith. . .but that's not echoed in scripture at all. If that's true, then Jesus himself did not have enough faith.

Secondly, I believe we are called to be a part of a body of Christ for fellowship and accountability and to receive teaching. I believe we are called to tithe. . .and then to give an offering according to our riches. Scripture talks about how when we are faithful to tithe that God will "fill our storehouses in abundance". But I believe we are to tithe to the body to which we are called. In fact, I remember someone who took their tithe and gave it to our church for our building. I don't know how our pastor found out about it. . .I think maybe the donator mentioned it. . .and our pastor gave it back telling him to tithe to his own body. (Offerings I think can be made anywhere. . .)

Furthermore, I have seen and watched too many examples of Godly people who have lived humbly and simply and have given away what they could live without. I certainly don't judge anyone's purchases but when I look at some of these millionaire pastors and televangelists, I sometimes wonder if they took their bank account and prayed over what the Lord would have them do with it. . .if God would just say. . .go ahead. . buy the mansion. . .you deserve it. (I do know that lots of pastors are blessed and seem to live more "richly" than their income would allow by the donations of others. . .but that's not really what I'm referring to.)

Finally, Jesus is not a magic genie. He never said our road in following him would be blessed with propsperity and health. . .in fact he said we would suffer for following him. The problem I see is that God is interested in our heart condition and we're interested in our outside condition. Our problem is our sin. Addressing the heart condition. . .and not he physical condition. . .should be what a pastor does.

(stepping off soap box now)

[mcmama]

Yay.

And I agree for the most part.

Osteen is watery. For people new to Christianity who are not getting the support in their congregations, or people wandering, he's a good linkup. He does make it easy, which is what many people need at first.

The "magic" philosophy attached to prayer and religion has held no promise for me, since it limits God. It limits prayer. "God, gimme" or "God, fix it". Or bargaining "God I will light candles, say 30 novenas, donate money, stop smoking or drinking etc, if you will just do this one thing".

Jesus does tell us to leave our junk, our treasures, and follow him. It really is a question of where your treasure is. And what you do with your resources.

I think it helps if you are going to be attracted to these ministries to do your homework. Looking into Lakewood Church, it sure looks like the Osteens have it pretty well covered - seems to be the family business. But if that is open, disclosed, and done rendering to cesar what is cesars and to God what is Gods, and to people what is theirs, and the congregation goes along with it, great. Meantime, I wouldn't donate, but bought the books from them at a good price.

Donating to churches and to ministries should be done intelligently and intentionally. One of the problems facing the Episcopal church right now is that in congregations and dioceses that want to secede from the national church, there is this little legal problem about real estate. Seems the church is organized so that the parishes don't belong to the people, but the people are holding them in trust for the national church. So if you secede, you don't get to take what you built with you, unless you fight for it. Nasty. There are also many protestant denominations that pay into their national organization, and Catholic churches that reserve a part of their budget to contribute to the diocese.

So good for congress to be investigating televised ministries, where it is just too easy for homebound people to reach for their phone and put it on the credit card. People should know what they are buying into.

[AussieD]

I have to say I'm with Valorie on this one. I've never even heard of most of those you mentioned (with the exception of Joyce Meyer who I know writes books but I've never watched her on TV or read one of her books) because I never watch tele evangelists. As to the prosperity gospel, I do not believe it is scriptural for some of the reasons Valorbie mentioned. Last year I wrote 3 blogs about this topic, 'Does God want us to be healthy,wealthy and wise?' to counteract what I see as this wrong teaching that stems from those pushing the prosperity gospel.
It seems to me if people couldn't get out to their own church it would be more helpful to spend quiet time with the Lord in prayer and bible reading rather than watch the stuff on TV and/or if possible get a CD from church of the minister's sermon. Many churches here in Australia have provision of CDs or downloads of the sermons. I assume it is the same in USA.

[mcmama]

Kenneth Copeland was on the news tonight, and I have to say, if I honestly earned that kind of wealth by preaching, I don't think I would be so conspicuous in the consumption. Mansions, planes, fancy trips - they are a job in and of themselves, and occupy a lot of your time just managing it. The fact that the church owns this stuff but he uses it looks like a tax dodge to me.

A lot of mainstream protestant churches do not stock videos, CDs downloads, etc, and the ministry of visiting can really vary. It's interesting that I know one lady who suffers from bipolar disorder, and she turns on Joel Osteen every Sunday. Some days she literally cannot get out of bed to walk to church, but she watches "her Joel" and reads the bible. It's a way that she has directed herself through the depression. So once she got better, she went to the local church, and heard the bishop speak. She had brought "Your Best Life Now" with her because she always carries it. During the service, she realized that she was dedicating her life to Christ, and "like Joel says, I have to go to church on Sunday and stop hanging out with the wrong people on Monday". Well, she was so happy she asked the bishop to autograph her Joel Osteen book!! He was somewhat confused about the reason, but he did it.

So God does work in mysterious ways. Joel Osteen and an Episcopal bishop tag teaming for this woman's salvation. Now, at this church, they take a dim view of the tv preachers. But she's attending, volunteering, praying, and it's because of the church's continued presence in the community and Joel Osteen's books and television broadcasts.

[twinzplus3]

Joel Osteen I have less of a problem with (same with Rick Warren. . .) as I wouldn't consider them 'prosperity teachers'. . .just watery. . .and to baby foodish. But you're right that there is a place for baby food at a meal. I do think that churches (in general) need to place a greater emphasis on reaching those who are incapacitated.

When pg with the twins, I couldn't/didn't go to church for almost two months towards the end of the pg and the weeks after their births. Thus, the audio ministry was born! People made a point to record for me. . .and now the sermons are online. This I like bc as of recently, we've been tag teaming church as someone has had something that we'd like not to pass around to all the other church children.

But televangelism and the prosperity gospel--while they often go hand in hand--are different. But they speak volumes about American churches and Christianity in this country in general. My Chinese friend who is here on a student visa has a lot of very interesting things to say about this type of stuff.

[J920]

I too used to watch my Joel Osteen. What is appealing is that he reminds us that the Lord isnt all doom and gloom, sin and punishment, but that their prosperity, success in the Lord. The OT is filled with examples. With that being said, he is baby foodish in that he doesnt deal with the nitty gritty of things. Its an uplifting however shallow message which would make the believers faith shallow.
I had this discussion in Bible study. I was in the minority at the time because I didnt see Joel's wateriness at the time. At the study the leader said that he was soft or denied Christ on Larry King and that Billy Graham never did that. Well, because I no mortals can be wrong, I researched both transcripts and in later articles it was confirmed that indeed Billy Graham deflected the "Jesus is the only to get heaven" question.
Do I think any less of BG, of course not. Nor is JO in the same league, but it taught not to get caught up in our human teachers. They are afterall human. That is why we have the Holy Spirit and the Word.
In the NT there is a story about a man Apollos who preached up to John the Baptist and a couple took him and completed his knowledge with Jesus Christ so Apollos then began preaching the full gospel. This is my hope for Joel who has such a large following.

[twinzplus3]

--I don't love Billy Graham either! My problem (if you want to call it that) isn't so much that the message is off or wrong. But it is impossible to understand grace if you don't understand the depth of your sin. And that seems to be the part that we don't have to talk about. I think that when people are left to sit in their living rooms (as opposed to churches reaching out to those who are incapacitated) it's too easy to sit there and think of all the friends you have who need this one message, rather than being held accountable to live a Godly life.

But again, I would NOT consider JO a propserity gospel teacher. Just a televangelist. The OT is full of examples of the Lord blessing people--but this is not automatically a sign of God's favor. Certainly Jesus himself, as well as John the Baptist, as well as Paul, and the list goes on. . .had very "unprosperous" lives in the eyes of the world. Yet they were doing God's will. What bothers me about the propserity gospel (among many things) is that we don't have any rights before God. God is utterly gracious in His character and that's why we can approach the throne with boldness. Anyhow. . .