[eidasevol]

How to we get married? My boyfriend is Muslim and I am agnostic. He wants to be with me for the rest of his life and I do to but he cannot marry people that are not "of the book". He is not going to change and neither am I. He calls himself a "middle of the road muslim" meaning he drinks and doesn't go to the mosque, but marrying someone not of the book is going to far for him.
Muslims are also required to marry. So he has to break one of the rules to be with me. Which one is better to break?

[mcmama]

A message in this thread has been deleted. This is a question about marriage and religion. We do not criticize or defame other members religions here.

Anybody tries that again in this thread, they are gone from this board.

[Muslim Mom]

I have spoken with many young women in your situation over the years. I'm sure you must be quite frustrated with your boyfriend since you see him breaking all the other "rules" of Islam (drinking, intercourse outside of marriage, etc.) but not the one that means the most to you–marriage to you!
While he may be hypocrytical, he is also honest enough with himself to know that he is "breaking the rules" and most likely he is thinking when he matures and begins to raise a family it will be time to get serious about his relationship with God. As a woman who doesn't feel particularly drawn to a religion at all, he can see this would be problematic when the children came, or when it was time to bring you home to his family. If he is a recent immigrant, his family may still be "back home" or they may be living near him, but chances are, they don't know about you, nor would they be likely to approve of their son marrying someone who wasn't Muslim, much less someone without faith conviction at all. Islamically speaking, he should not marry a woman who doesn't have strong faith in God, he knows this and realizes the implications it would have for raising a faithful family.
Islam puts great importance on family. This has not faded in modern times. I can't tell you of the many Muslim men who date non-Muslim girls only to end up going home to marry a girl introduced to them by his family. A Muslim girl who shares the same values and similar upbringing.
As heartbreaking as it is to say, it's better if you think about the real message your boyfriend is giving you...he's just not that into you for marriage. Keep your dignity and find a guy that shares your same view on life. This guy isn't going to change his basic wiring, no matter how loving and romantic he is, this is a romance for him not a lifelong commitment. Many men of these cultures do not know how to be frank, they don't have years of dating experience or relationship skills, he may not be able to tell you what I can tell just by reading your few lines. He wants to be with you all his life, but he can't. That may as close to a break-up line as he can get.

[eidasevol]

hmmmm, he has been here for over 6 years now and does not want to live anywhere but here. He also does not want to marry someone from his country. He wants to be with an American. If he wanted to find a wife he could have when he was over there for 4 months, he just came back. I asked him if anyone was interested in him and he said his whole family knows he does not want to marry anyone from there.
He said he knows his family may not approve of someone without a belief in god, like me, but they would also be happy for him that he found someone he loves.
He says he wants to marry me, he just has to figure out how to get around the rules of his religion. We have talked about kids too, we discussed adoption because he can adopt kids and they dont' have to be Muslim.
I read in a different post someone wrote about god wants you to be happy, so even if the person that makes you happy isn't of your religion, shouldn't god be happy for you?

[mcmama]

Whether or not God wants you to be happy or is happy, Muslim Mom has shown some reasons why in a marriage you may find that you are not happy with someone who cames from an Islamic background and does not wish to fully discard his beliefs or his heritage.

What you would be entering into is like an interfaith marriage - only he has a faith that he does not practice intensely, and you either don't believe in God or don't know if there is a God. That's workable when dating, but marriage means being part of a family and starting your own family, and the practice of that is where the disconnect comes in.

My son is marrying a girl who was raised neo-pagan. Like me, he is a Christian, and she has become a Christian. They intend to raise their kids Christian. Should be simple, right? Wrong!!! Her family is not happy about their future grandkids being raised in one faith - they are concerned about the future grandkids not understanding their practice of paganism. Now if they want to maintain a relationship with her family (and they do) there are some issues to be discussed, agreed upon, and disagreed upon. Even if they do not have kids, marriage changes the whole thing of who is family.

When I was a child care provider, I had several families who were Jewish/Christian - the dads were Jewish, the moms were Christian. One family really did not bother much with either. They had a Christmas tree, they celebrated Chanukkah and Passover with the grandparents, never did any religious instruction with the child, and that was that. Worked for them. Even with that minimal amount of religious involvement, there had to be openness and communication about the cultural expectations - and both had to work at it.

With the other family, it was very important to the dad that the child be raised Jewish. So before the child was born, they intentionally joined a reform synagogue where interfaith couples could find support, education, and friendship. The wife took classes to learn what was expected, and became involved in the temple nursery school and youth programs. She never converted, did not want to give up her basic Christianity. Today, their son is in college, still Jewish, and they are still married.

I also have a friend who was raised Catholic by her Jewish father and stepmother. Seems her dad made a promise to her Catholic mom - and after the mom died, he felt that a promise was a promise. Being a man of faith, he kept it, even after remarrying. Really kept it, she had a thorough Catholic education and upbringing.

A marriage outside one's religion takes a lot of work on an ongoing basis. This may be where the instruction to marry "people of the book" comes from. People who are "of the book" have experience at the actual PRACTICE of religion and faith. People who do not have this structure have a lot to wrap their brains around in raising a family or being part of an extended one.

You said neither one of you is going to change. In successful interfaith marriages and families, both partners grow and change in some way.

Anyway, sounds like the two of you have a lot to decide and talk over. If you and he decide to marry, please get some premarital counseling so it will be easier for the two of you to bridge these different backgrounds, and cross those bridges together. I've advised my son and his fiance to do the same!

[Muslim Mom]

Originally Posted by eidasevol

hmmmm, he has been here for over 6 years now and does not want to live anywhere but here. He also does not want to marry someone from his country. He wants to be with an American. If he wanted to find a wife he could have when he was over there for 4 months, he just came back. I asked him if anyone was interested in him and he said his whole family knows he does not want to marry anyone from there.
He said he knows his family may not approve of someone without a belief in god, like me, but they would also be happy for him that he found someone he loves.
He says he wants to marry me, he just has to figure out how to get around the rules of his religion. We have talked about kids too, we discussed adoption because he can adopt kids and they dont' have to be Muslim.
I read in a different post someone wrote about god wants you to be happy, so even if the person that makes you happy isn't of your religion, shouldn't god be happy for you?

Do you believe in God? If not, why would you care if God wants you to be happy? Muslims don't think in terms of being happy, they think of terms of being faithful to God and of living a life of purpose and good works. Living a life that is pleasing to God is what makes a person happy on earth and deserving of everlasting peace in the Hereafter. If you don't believe in Heaven and Hell, and you don't believe in earning anyone's approval outside your own, you will have nothing but heartache living with a Muslim man, no matter how "moderate" he is.
Forgive me for being frank, but you are being quite naive about your situation. He is not trying to figure out how to marry you, because Islam doesn't have loopholes like the tax code, either you follow the faith or you don't.
Why would you give up having your own children, just so you could marry this man who doesn't share your value system? Do you think that just because the children would not be of your body you'd raise them with different values? (I've never heard his assumption about not raising adopted children as Muslims, that sounds weird and like another excuse.)

I know countless Muslim men who ran around when they were young, living like non-Muslims but as they reached their late 30's early 40's, they got serious about being a Muslim. (I'm writer/editor for the Muslim media and have been active in it as an American convert for many, many years)

When he went home for four months did he call you from there? Did you speak to his family members and get introduced? I bet not. In most Muslim cultures, if you were a factor that was out in the open with his family, you would have "met" them even over the phone. I'm guessing you received surreptitious emails, sent on the sly or quick calls while he was out shopping, etc. Think about it.

Does he have a green card? Or is he on a student visa or something like an H1B? What part of the world is he from?

Spend some time with women married to men from his country, get to know the culture before you are so sure you want to immerse yourself into it, because believe me, the odds are he will never completely disassociate himself from his upbringing and his culture. Also, ask about his parents when they reach old age, who will be caring for them? If he is an older son and/or if he is the only one in the US, I bet (if he's honest with you), he'll tell you that of course he'd call them here and of course they'd live with you. Are you ready for that? Better be!

Sometimes when we are young, we want what we want, regardless if it is good for us or if it is even reasonable.

[eidasevol]

Of course he called me, almost every day and though he did not tell his family I am his girlfriend he told them all about me as his friend. How I picked out their presents from him and I taught him how to cook. And his mom picked out a present for me.
I have always wanted to adopt, I never really felt like I must have my own children. There are so many kids out there that need homes. He says he can adopt kids and they don't have to be Muslim because he is not supposed to push his religion on others. I researched this and found it to be true. I talked to an American Muslim who told me he can't even push his own kids to be Muslim because he can't push his religion on anyone. He said they have to want it for themselves. He was a convert though, maybe that is the difference.
He has brothers and sisters over there and they will look after his parents. No one else from his family wants to come over here to live. He asked them.
We have talked about values and we share most of the same values. He accepts me for who I am. I do the same for him. I don't want him to fully disassociate from his culture.
He is from Pakistan and on a work visa. His employer is going to apply for his permanent resident card this year. He wants to become a citizen of the US.
And he is going to figure out how to marry me, or be with me. I asked him again last night. He is going to talk to some people about it.
I don't believe in God but his God should want him to be happy. I asked him about that last night and he said, yeah, something like that. He will talk to his people about it though.
Of course we are each going to have to make a few changes, I meant that I am not going to fully change my religion and he is not either. But I am willing to do everything I can to understand his religion and I have already read a ton of books about it. And he is willing to understand me and accept me. Counciling is a good idea.
Why do I feel like I have to defend my relationship?

[Muslim Mom]

I cannot believe his family understood he was dating a person who doesn't believe in God. You are fooling yourself if you think they'd be okay with him marrying you as one who is an athesist.
Indian/Pakistani culture is so extremely different than American culture, you have no idea how different! I am married to an Indian Muslim and know first hand the culture from the inside out. You need to understand the reverence he will always have towards his parents, it's not only a matter of respecting them, in this culture it is a matter of obeying them. He may tell you that he is his own man, but when push comes to shove, chances are this guy will cave if his parents hit the roof about marrying you. Otherwise, what would have been the harm in him telling them he was in love with you and needed to find a way around the fact that you are an atheist? He was there for four months, and calling you daily, surely they must have suspected you were more than a friend. Believe me, they know he's involved with you, however, they don't imagine he'll marry you. He doesn't come from a modern social society, there are a lot of double standards for men over women. They look the other way with their sons, until it means something permanent like marriage.
You asked how do we get married? I am not believing in God, he is a lapsed Muslim from another part of the world. You don't have to defend anything, but you won't hear older, more experienced people tell you the things you want to hear if they aren't true.
Here is the biggest bit of advice, spend time with other Pakistani women, learn about the culture and their attitudes before you decide anything. If he is sincere, let him take you to the Imam at the local mosque and you both ask advice on how you should get married. Why do you leave it up to him to get the answers and filter them back to you? You should stand up for yourself in this thing, if he is genuine, he'll jump at the chance to introduce you to other Pakistani's and he'll be happy you want to speak to an Imam with him.
Invite him to post here, even. Ask him to post the question on a reputable Islamic website, write the post together, view the responses together. Make sure everything is out in the open.

[mcmama]

Actually, my take on it was a little different. If he was there for four months and did not acknowledge you as anything more than a friend, that doesn't sound really up front.

You do not need to be defensive about the relationship or anything else - you will do what you do. But us old married women are a bit experienced in the stuff that happens in marriage - which is way different than dating. And if you feel defensive when we ask you these questions - how will you cope with his family?

I live in a really diverse area, and know quite a few pakistanis. Some are devout, some not - but the culture and family are very important, no matter how firm the life in the USA. The relationship between the wife and the in laws is very important - and there is often an expectation that family visits will last for a LOONG while, not just a few days. Most pakistani couples I know even when they start out in marriage look for a house or apartment with room for visitors to stay over. 2 bathrooms, a decent kitchen, and an extra bedroom are essential for that reason.

I think muslimmom has given you some good advice about opening things up with the family. A marriage has to be based on honesty. And if family is important to him, he has to open it up to you. You really need to know what you are getting into.

My ex and I were of the same faith, but I wish I had met his family before our wedding. If I had done so, and seen how things are with them and how he was with them, I probably would not have married him. It's not just the religion and rules.

Anyway, we have given you both a lot to think about and discuss with each other. And if your boyfriend wants to post here, he is welcome!

[Muslim Mom]

Mcmama is 100% correct about south Asian families. Every Indian/Pakistani son I know (many of them married to American Muslim converts) has their parents living with them full time, six months a year (visit visa last 6 months for parents) or at the very least three months if there are other siblings living in the country. Also, don't believe the whole family wouldn't like to live here also. Have you been to Pakistan? Most, even wealthy Pakistani's would jump at the chance to immigrate and raise their families here, the education opportunities alone are reason enough. Pakistan is still a third world country and it doesn't compare to life in America.
Pakistani mother-in-laws are notorious for being difficult to please, particularly if you are not another Pakistani, or even a Pakistani from the right family or even city! I am not exaggerating here. This is not a live-and-let-live group of people, believe me, and I love them dearly and live among them, however, I am a Muslim and I value their culture and I work hard to understand them. Even after 16 years I'm still learning from my south Asian lady friends, sisters-in-law, and husband.