[ConfusedinIraq]

Even though I am somewhat discouraged at how dated some of the threads and responses are this could be my last shot at getting answers I need. I have been scanning the net for months and cannot find the answers I need - and frankly, feel as though only real time questions and answers are what I need access to. I have studied the subject exhaustingly.

I am a middle-aged Christian male (divorced) "seeing" a middle-aged (widowed)Muslim woman. We want to get married but there are issues I cannot get clear cut answers on. Yes, I am willing to convert even though there are some ideas I don't necessarily agree with. Yes, I love her very much and would make a great husband for her.

The problems: Her parents do not accept this proposal at all - primarily because I am American. She is set on defying her parents - most recently telling her parents if she didn't marry me she would never marry.

My questions is just what responsibilities lie with muslim woman in obeying her parents wishes on such matters? What kind of repercussions could there be if she does against her wishes? In light of this disapproval, would I be doing her a disservice by going ahead with our plans?

I want very deeply for her parents to accept this but it is now a moot point to them. Even with their feelings, I care about them and want to help them live a better life outside of Iraq.

Help is really needed - especially if it can come in the area of real time chat so I can ask questions as I think of them.

[mcmama]

Sorry I can't answer your question about the responsibilities a middle aged muslim woman has to her parents authority. I just don't know because I am not muslim.

Is her parents opposition based on her leaving Iraq to live in America? Would they oppose her living anyplace else?

Also, you mentioned that you were willing to convert even though there are things you don't necessarily agree with. I'd be careful about that if I were you. My impression of Islam is that it is a religion that one cannot convert to in name only and then lead a secular lifestyle. Maybe some of her parents reluctance to accept you is that they perceive you as an outsider who has not made a mature decision about your own spiritual direction.

Hope you will get the answer you seek from Muslims on this site soon.

[ConfusedinIraq]

Well, here are my "personal issues". It seems odd to me Muslim men can marry others "of the book" but Muslim women do not have that option. The other is that it appears that the reasoning for this is that Muslim men are the only ones capable of understanding and accepting Christian prophets while Christian men could not accept Mohammed. A bit arrogant I think. To a lesser degree I have a bit of a problem with the polygamy part. Each of those reasons also seem to be a bit oppressive to women.

My "fiance" is very, very western in many ways but would like to observe the normal traditional Muslim values of marriage - i.e. getting her family blessing. She has told me the reason her parents object is strictly because I am an American. Even if I did convert, they would still not accept me because I was an American.

This situation is very difficult for me because I want to do what is right for her - but I still want to be with her.

[Firespice]

I too am not a Muslim, but i will add what i just recently told one of my closest friends.

she said she wouldnt marry her boyfriend/fiance if it drove a wedge beteen him and his parents (muslim BTW - but boyfriend is not practicing) his parents dont like her just because her skin collor is different.

anyways - god (by whatever name you call him) wants you to be happy, and if two peole who are ment for each other are lucky enough to find each other they need to go for it, and just be together. its up to both of you to make the rigt choise for the right rasons. if you have each other you can get through anything.

Good luck - i know how hard a situtation like this can be, i hope your path gets clearer for you, and you both are able to take that path.

suzie

[MissyChrissy]

Can you become a citizen to another country?

[QueenAngie]

We have several Muslim friends on this board, so I am hoping that one will respond to your questions.

I see that there are two things that your GF's family object about you:
You are an American
and
you are not of the same faith.

I am hoping one of our Muslim friends will be able to help you.

Best of luck with your future!

[Muslim Mom]

Originally Posted by ConfusedinIraq

Well, here are my "personal issues". It seems odd to me Muslim men can marry others "of the book" but Muslim women do not have that option. The other is that it appears that the reasoning for this is that Muslim men are the only ones capable of understanding and accepting Christian prophets while Christian men could not accept Mohammed. A bit arrogant I think. To a lesser degree I have a bit of a problem with the polygamy part. Each of those reasons also seem to be a bit oppressive to women.

My "fiance" is very, very western in many ways but would like to observe the normal traditional Muslim values of marriage - i.e. getting her family blessing. She has told me the reason her parents object is strictly because I am an American. Even if I did convert, they would still not accept me because I was an American.

This situation is very difficult for me because I want to do what is right for her - but I still want to be with her.

You need a lot of information about Islam and this is not the place to find it all, as you've noticed. I'm curious why you haven't consulted an Islamic website for this kind of dilemma...
In any case, while you did ask for a private reply to the same question I feel compelled to answer some of your questions publicly due to your misunderstanding of the tenets of the faith, wherever you got them from. Muslim women are to only marry Muslim men not because of anything like you stated. It is simply because Islam's family structure is quite traditional in that the father is the religious leader of the home. If you are Christian, for example, how could a Muslim woman raise her children as Muslims when the father should lead the family in prayer five times a day in the home (when he's home of course, if he is at work then the oldest son would lead the family or the mother would lead the family if the boys are young or if there are only daughters. Women lead the prayer when there are only women present, otherwise we consider the most knowledgeable or oldest Muslim male present to lead the prayer. This makes sense if you have observed the Muslim prayer in congregation) A Muslim wife should be able to depend on her husband to lead her and the family towards good spiritual life, this why religious scholars say it's also not advisable for a devout Muslim woman to marry a secular Muslim man or visa versa. The two people coming together should be of equitable levels of conviction to the faith. If you look through forums here even you'll see problems that arise between a less committed wife and her very devoted husband, he is extremely dedicated to following the example of the Prophet Muhammed, down to the tiniest detail and she has a much harder time being so rigid. In my opinion, neither is wrong, it's just that they don't agree that causes problems.
Iraq is a very tribal, traditional society. I have limited experience with Iraqi's other than well educated ones who have been residing in the US for 30-40 years, however, even these professional people are so family oriented you wouldn't believe it. You are American and you've never seen such strong family ties as these people. This is what she is concerned about. In America, we get married and lead an independent life from our parents and siblings and grandparents and aunts and uncles, We move around the country, we call on the phone once a month or less, but these people do not go for a day without keeping contact with each other. They thrive on the company of their family. Imagine her like a flower, if you pluck her up from the garden, how long will she last in a vase of water-no matter how beautiful the crystal is? Really, you ought to learn more about her and her culture and her faith, because whether she realizes it or not, culture for some Muslims is synonymous with faith, especially in that part of the world.
The issue of polygamy is really complex and not at all what you imagine. There is not enough room to discuss that topic fairly, however, if you intend to convert, you best understand it and learn about the reasoning behind it, (plus it doesn't work both ways, your wife cannot take another husband and if you didn't want or couldn't afford to keep a second wife why do you care?).
There are different schools of thought regarding her marrying without the permission of her father. Traditionally, a woman would rely on her family's opinion and then accept or deny a proposal. In some cultures she wouldn't dream of defying her father. If she is middle aged and without a father (he died, she is a convert with a non-Muslim father, for example) and she is independent she could marry without a "wali"(a protector, someone who looks out for her best interest), but that is complex as well and may not apply at all to her situation. It doesn't matter if she is close to her family, you will not make her happy by asking her to defy their wishes.
Your best bet is to begin to learn about Islam with a clean heart, if you are inspired toward the faith, embrace it and then worry about this lady. If you would not convert except for her sake, do not do it and leave her alone for your sake and hers.
As for the fact that you are American, it goes back to what I just said, because Islam has no ethnic requirements and is not nationalistic, however many Arab cultures are. Plus, who's being arrogant here? If another country invaded your land, and sent it into ruins, would you want your daughter to marry the occupier?
I am a convert to Islam, I embraced Islam because I found a connection with God and everything in my life got better. I married a Muslim man and we are raising a Muslim family. This is harmonious and peaceful, and that is what this lady wants for herself. If you can't provide it, don't make your lives miserable. Islam is more than something you do once a week, you live it, you breath it and you die with it. Until you understand that and feel it in your heart, you won't be able to make her happy.

[ConfusedinIraq]

Wow - feel like I have been taken out behind the proverbial woodshed.

Just so you know, I have read and re-read so many Islam websites it makes my head spin. Literally countless hours of studying. From interpreatations of the Quoran to traditionans of Muslim weddings to Islamic families to Muslim lives and morals and so on and so on and so on. I live in a city where there is a very large Islamic Center and have emailed them several times to try and get consultation - yet, never received a reply. It would not be right for me to consider conversion without knowing what I was converting to nor would it be right for her. The faith falls in line with the things I feel. And what I have found out, is just like and other religion or any aspect of life, it's a personal choice and how one chooses to live it. Obviously, if she didn't feel I was right or that my heart was not in the right place she would not make the choice to be with me.

Yes - there are some issues. For example your reference to the prayer leader of the family. Let's say the oldest male is 16 - how would he possibly know more about the faith than the mother of 45 who has lived it every day of her life? You did not address my other issues. Why is it that only Muslim men are determined to have the capacity to understand and/or accept the prophets of others "of the book"? I have no problem accepting Mohammed? In fact, it makes perfect sense to me. Yet - as a Christian I don't have this accepted capacity?

I don't have a complete understanding yet of the all the traditions and values of the Islamic people. But I did notice, with envy, very early on the commitment to family. I have written home to friends stating where 20% of American families may share this bond - clearly 80% here do. But again - I have also seen exceptions depending on how people want to live their lives. And to answer the question before it's asked - yes, I have had extensive contacts with Iraqi people. Unfortunately, I don't now, and it is a loss for me.

Your take on my being an "occupier" was interesting. Maybe I'm an idealist, but my "occupation" has put me in a position to personally help, to try and make things better. I'd like to feel I have. I can't cure all the ills, but if I can help one person or one family at a time I will feel ok when I leave. The term "occupier" equals to being a "slave owner" because my forefathers may have brought slaves to the U.S. Am I not suppose to try and help because I equate every Muslim with 9/11? I am personally not responsible for this "occupation" just as all Muslims are not responsible for the World Trade Center. One can only do what they can do to try and make it a better place.

As far as polygamy - I think I have a very good grasp on the reasoning. It is that reasoning that lead me to my beliefs about it. And why I would care simply comes down to the mentality of it.

I have thought long and hard about this situation. I have tried to learn to come to an educated conclusion. There have even been sleepless nights because of it. It has not, is not and never will be my intent for her to defy her family. In fact, it is she who keeps trying to convince me this is her decision and this is what she wants. I just want to make certain if we go forward that I am doing right by her.

Again, I came to this site in the hope to learn more. Maybe you are correct - maybe it wasn't the right place.

[Muslim Mom]

Originally Posted by ConfusedinIraq

Wow - feel like I have been taken out behind the proverbial woodshed.

Just so you know, I have read and re-read so many Islam websites it makes my head spin. Literally countless hours of studying. From interpreatations of the Quoran to traditionans of Muslim weddings to Islamic families to Muslim lives and morals and so on and so on and so on. I live in a city where there is a very large Islamic Center and have emailed them several times to try and get consultation - yet, never received a reply. It would not be right for me to consider conversion without knowing what I was converting to nor would it be right for her. The faith falls in line with the things I feel. And what I have found out, is just like and other religion or any aspect of life, it's a personal choice and how one chooses to live it. Obviously, if she didn't feel I was right or that my heart was not in the right place she would not make the choice to be with me.

Yes - there are some issues. For example your reference to the prayer leader of the family. Let's say the oldest male is 16 - how would he possibly know more about the faith than the mother of 45 who has lived it every day of her life? You did not address my other issues. Why is it that only Muslim men are determined to have the capacity to understand and/or accept the prophets of others "of the book"? I have no problem accepting Mohammed? In fact, it makes perfect sense to me. Yet - as a Christian I don't have this accepted capacity?

I don't have a complete understanding yet of the all the traditions and values of the Islamic people. But I did notice, with envy, very early on the commitment to family. I have written home to friends stating where 20% of American families may share this bond - clearly 80% here do. But again - I have also seen exceptions depending on how people want to live their lives. And to answer the question before it's asked - yes, I have had extensive contacts with Iraqi people. Unfortunately, I don't now, and it is a loss for me.

Your take on my being an "occupier" was interesting. Maybe I'm an idealist, but my "occupation" has put me in a position to personally help, to try and make things better. I'd like to feel I have. I can't cure all the ills, but if I can help one person or one family at a time I will feel ok when I leave. The term "occupier" equals to being a "slave owner" because my forefathers may have brought slaves to the U.S. Am I not suppose to try and help because I equate every Muslim with 9/11? I am personally not responsible for this "occupation" just as all Muslims are not responsible for the World Trade Center. One can only do what they can do to try and make it a better place.

As far as polygamy - I think I have a very good grasp on the reasoning. It is that reasoning that lead me to my beliefs about it. And why I would care simply comes down to the mentality of it.

I have thought long and hard about this situation. I have tried to learn to come to an educated conclusion. There have even been sleepless nights because of it. It has not, is not and never will be my intent for her to defy her family. In fact, it is she who keeps trying to convince me this is her decision and this is what she wants. I just want to make certain if we go forward that I am doing right by her.

Again, I came to this site in the hope to learn more. Maybe you are correct - maybe it wasn't the right place.

Well, I often strike people this way when I post here; I tend not to gild the lily as they say. I wonder, are you in Iraq now or are you back in the U.S.? If you are in the U.S. you ought to just walk into the Islamic center and tell the imam your situation and ask for help in understanding, no one who posts here is an Islamic scholar or really qualified to answer all your questions. Forget the Internet, where you don't even know to whom you are speaking, right?
I do think, however, you are misguided in the idea that Muslims consider the man to be more knowledgeable in Islamic studies, that is absolutely not true. Aisha, the wife of the Prophet Muhammed is known to be the greatest teacher in Islamic jurisprudence that ever was. I don't know where you got this concept of "knowledge of the Prophets" thing, it's not valid and it's not even a true concept in Islam, at least as I know it from my Sunni Islamic studies, maybe Shia's have some other theories I'm not aware of. You should be aware that there are some differences in Islamic law with the Shia minority groups and I can't speak to them. I am aware that Iran has some biased laws regarding marriage and divorce and custody of children that wouldn't apply with correctly practicing Sunni Muslims. Another reason not to rely on the internet too much, it's so easy to get wrong information.
The point is in relation to the father being a Muslim in a Muslim family and that realistically speaking, there can only be one captain of a ship and final decisions have to be made after consultation with the crew by the captain. If the captain of the Muslim ship is Christian, will decisions be based on what is Islamically right for the family or will they be based on what he thinks from his Christian perspective and values? There are more reasons, but this is the major one from an Islamic perspective.
The things you admire about her culture and values may be difficult to replicate here in America, especially if you become a lukewarm Muslim convert. Matters of the heart cannot always be intellectualized, either Islam inspires you or it doesn't. I always found Islam to be quite logical and practical, however, it is God that inspires me to be a Muslim.
I apologize for the occupier remark but really, from her family’s point of view, after all the turmoil they’ve been suffering from can you imagine you’d want your daughter to marry an American? You’re not “W” but maybe to them you represent him in their country. If you are in the military, I can only imagine their dismay.
The points you’ve brought up don’t illustrate someone who has studied from reliable sources. If you are able to step into a mosque here in the States, that is the absolute best step towards answering your questions. You may not get replies through email, they don’t know who you are, but I’d be surprised if an imam refused to counsel you here in America.

[ConfusedinIraq]

I am still in Iraq and am not military.

While I would tend to agree with you that sometimes you don't really know the source of information on the internet - without some help on a personal level it's all I have. Primarily I have used al-islam.com, islamway.com, tepapa.govt.nz, belief.net and submissions.org and sometimes the sources they guide me to. Unlike when I was in Baghdad and had access to Iraqis - I don't have that here. They are a missing resource for me aside from them being good people and good friends. Your statement about the Islamic Center's lack of response doesn't sway me. They don't know who I am. I would think they would only view me as someone reaching out to them for guidance while attempting to embrace it's teachings and traditions.

Ironically, I received an email from my "fiance" today advising me her family arrived today in Amman. I can't help believe it is to discuss this matter face-to-face with her.

Again, their perception of me being a "W" would be just as wrong as me considering them insurgents. But I realize, this is human nature.

One thing to please keep in mind. I want to do right. She is the one who is convinced beyond doubt this is what she wants.